IT’S ONE of the best-known naturalistic gardens anyplace, and nonetheless it’s perched in principally in all probability probably the most unnatural spot conceivable, 30 ft excessive above New York Metropolis company on an deserted elevated railway line. The Excessive Line on Manhattan’s West Side is celebrating the fifteenth anniversary of the opening of its first half, years which have been full {{of professional}} programs on gardening on this looser, nature-inspired model.
In the meanwhile’s buyer is Richard Hayden, the Excessive Line’s senior director of horticulture. His group of 10 horticulturists manages the naturalistic gardens, initially designed by Piet Oudolf of the Netherlands, spanning components of the 1.5-mile beloved park that welcomes about 7 million firm a yr. (Above, overhead {{photograph}} by Timothy Schenck.)
Be taught alongside as you’re taking heed to the July 8, 2024 mannequin of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant beneath. You may subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts correct proper right here).
programs in naturalistic gardening, with richard hayden
Margaret Roach: So totally joyful anniversary, birthday—no matter now we have to determine it, to you and the group.
Richard Hayden: Thanks.
Margaret: It was satisfying assembly only a few of you, on the very least virtually, to do a up to date “New York Occasions” yard column collectively, which obtained a terrific response, which made me totally joyful. So briefly, I actually really feel for people who uncover themselves listening from all through who could not have visited, inform us the lay of the non-land over there [laughter]. I point out, it’s a nutty setup when you consider it.
Richard: When you consider it altogether, the truth that it occurred in the least is usually a miracle. So in actuality, it was an unused, elevated railway on the West Side of Manhattan. And over the course of the 20 years that the trains weren’t working, seeds had drifted in and birds had maybe dropped only some factors off and soil had gotten created, and so this panorama had occurred.
And when the time acquired proper right here to ponder what to do with it all through the late ’90s, the thought it’d flip proper right into a yard due to individuals had been up correct proper right here it in its wild state, and there have been some wonderful footage taken by Joel Sternfeld of its wild state that it grew to transform this concept that it might very successfully be a yard. And Piet Oudolf was employed and Self-discipline Operations and Diller Scofidio + Renfro did some good designs.
And correct proper right here we’re 15 years later, and it’s, I actually really feel a number of of the essential public gardens of the twenty first century, due to it modified one of many easiest methods we take into accounts how we yard. It’s the 4 season yard. As Piet says, “a plant isn’t value rising until it seems good lifeless.” [Laughter.] And it’s true. It’s so lovely correct proper right here all through the autumn and all through the winter, nonetheless it’s three-dimensional yard chess that he performs due to every zone is barely totally utterly completely different.
And it affords you this emotionally evocative journey as you go from woodlands to grasslands and totally utterly completely different mixtures and complexities. And naturally, all that complexity ends in biodiversity. We’ve got many bees and birds and utterly completely different animals that go to. So it’s solely a really good respite from metropolis.
Margaret: And the problem that once we did the Occasions story that I merely discovered while you first stated it to me and I merely can’t get nicely from the thought of it, you have got your soil depth up there and these beds that had been constructed for this on this elevated railway, the soil shouldn’t be what, greater than 18 inches deep? I point out, it’s like raised beds [above, during pruning season; photo by Richard Hayden] on a raised railroad platform.
Richard: You’re right. It’s primarily 18 inches. There’s a pair spots the place we’ve obtained some raised planters that we mound up and possibly get to 30 inches or so. And I’ve to allow you to already know, after I first began, which was a few bit over two and a half years thus far, and I used to be seeing these 30-foot-tall birch timber and oak timber and all these monumental timber rising in 18 inches of soil, it actually saved me up at night time time time. Each time the wind would blow…
Margaret: I may have a panic assault on the thought-about it. Precisely.
Richard: After which I did some climbing in Northwest Connecticut on the Appalachian Path, and there had been a windstorm, and these mature timber had blown over. And lo and behold, 18 inches of roots on account of the entire glacial rock. The forest was actually rising in 18 inches of soil. And I believed, you acknowledge what? Mom Nature’s figured this out. I don’t have to fret fairly a bit.
Margaret: O.Okay., so that you purchase began sleeping, good [laughter].
Richard: Constructive, precisely.
Margaret: Nonetheless it’s. It’s actually fairly a feat and it’s good that it was impressed by that self-sown insanity that had occurred on this deserted house.
Richard: Precisely, precisely, clearly with an ingenious eye. And the issue with 18 inches is that it doesn’t… On account of there may be heat air on prime and heat air beneath, and chilly air on prime and chilly air beneath, so we don’t have loads of cushion.
Margaret: No.
Richard: So all by means of warmth waves, as an illustration, now we have to be very cautious to maintain up factors with the simplest moisture ranges. After which all through the winter often, we do lose only some factors if now we have a moist chilly snap or one issue. So it does make challenges for which suggests.
Margaret: So Piet designed it in a naturalistic model, and he’s sort of the chief of that motion. Nonetheless it doesn’t point out that it’s all native. And it furthermore doesn’t point out, naturalistic doesn’t point out, like hands-off, let it do its concern; no matter occurs, occurs. It’s a design. So let’s concentrate on a bit bit about that.
Richard: Appropriate. So it’s about 50 p.c native. We did an lovely hort celebration remaining yr the place we honored New York Metropolis native crops, and we got here throughout we had 160 species that had been native or acknowledged to be native to New York Metropolis out of the 5 hundred or so species that now we have. They usually weren’t chosen due to that they’d been native, that they’d been chosen due to they’re merely actually good, resilient crops. So I used to be totally joyful to do this discovery.
And Piet could very nicely be very fairly a bit about gardens are for individuals, and so natives are good, nonetheless often there are bloom intervals the place the natives actually aren’t filling the realm of curiosity or possibly they don’t have sufficient winter improvement. He’s totally joyful to mix factors so long as they’re well-behaved, and now we have only some that haven’t been so well-behaved. So it’s a discovering out curve.
Margaret: [Laughter.] Don’t all of us, Richard? Don’t all of us have only some of these?
Richard: Accurately, to be a worthwhile plant on the Excessive Line, it’s a ought to to have a sure amount of resilience, a sure amount of aggression. And so loads of what we do is take care of these. We’ve got a grass, Korean feather grass that was planted in a single space, and I seen in some footage, in about three years after it was planted, it had been 20 p.c of the combo. And three years later, it was 80 p.c of the combo due to it’s merely such a virulent reseeder. That’s one among many factors now we have to do, is now we have to take care of these factors that should be too worthwhile, in order that they don’t swallow their neighbors. Keep the soundness.
Margaret: Accurately, and so only a few of the methods during which he instructed all through the preliminary design and that you just merely and your group uphold and so forth to be naturalistic… I point out, as an illustration, there was one which principally you guys talked to me about all by means of the Occasions story interview, which, in actuality, it didn’t actually happen to me. I wouldn’t have seen it consciously, nonetheless there it’s and it’s so apparent now that you’ve got stated it aloud to me.
Everytime you’ve the yard on both facet of a path, that these drifts of crops which is more likely to be on the one facet furthermore should often be on the choice facet in order that it seems as if the trail was added by way of a pure space versus… Yeah, this continuity versus these are two separate gardens and correct proper right here is my path, additional artifical. And simply a majority of these hints like that. Any others like that that you just take into consideration? Accurately, let’s concentrate on concerning the drifts possibly due to that’s an essential facet of his kinds of designs and naturalistic model. [Above, Timothy Schenck photo.]
Richard: Accurately, it’s fascinating due to it might very nicely be very simple to get these tremendous refined gardens with various crops exhibiting all subsequent to 1 one different. Nonetheless while you’re utilizing nature as a mannequin, nature tends to not… I point out, it might be a really thick planting, nonetheless often it’s a repetition of a sequence of species. In order that’s what Piet has replicated. He’ll select what he calls his major accent crops. After which the Excessive Line yard is actually what he would consider a matrix yard. So it’s a planting of a groundcover layer, often flowering.
So you may have factors like autumn moor grass or catmint and utterly completely different factors that will merely give you a foundation a flooring cowl, and that’s the type of concern that you just merely’ll see often drifting on both facet of the trail. After which into which is more likely to be the bigger perennials that happen in threes and fives and sevens. All the time odd numbers for some motive, nonetheless it does at all times seems bigger. Nonetheless he retains it simple. By defending the drifts massive, it turns proper right into a bit bit additional legible.
After which lots of the new gardens that he does are literally block planting the place it’s merely sequence of blocks, clearly actually not a geometrical variety, additional of a tear variety or some kind of an additional pure variety. Nonetheless he does that fairly repeatedly alongside collectively along with his newer gardens, due to it’s simpler to care for. You discover what’s imagined to be the place, what’s gotten out of steadiness.
Margaret: I see.
Richard: Nonetheless correct proper right here on the Excessive Line, we’re a bit bit additional refined, so we’re persistently managing the dynamics of anybody species. Some factors they don’t succeed. We had only a few crops. I’m very fairly a bit into Helenium, and I’m forgetting widespread names.
Margaret: Sneezeweed [laughter].
Richard: Sneezeweed, right, sure, they usually additionally merely actually not took. And naturally, Piet doesn’t use loads of purple, and it’s sort of burgundy purple, the one which he was suggesting correct proper right here. I actually really feel it was ‘Moerheim Magnificence.’ We merely needed to hunt for utterly completely different factors due to it merely was actually not totally joyful.
Margaret: In his distinctive planting designs for the quite a few yard areas on the Excessive Line, he sort of narrows down… I point out, these are smaller areas than nature, nonetheless he narrows down the variety of key crops that we’ll be in, and he makes use of huge numbers of every one in these drifts and these naturalistically original drifts. Since you don’t need it to simply be a zillion polka dots all through of chaos. I point out, that’s not going to be taught, is it? [Above, Liz Ligon photo.]
Richard: No. And it’s merely fascinating we’re having this dialog, and I used to be merely this morning laying out a Piet Oudolf design. We’ve got a mannequin new plaza that’s transferring into at avenue stage at 18th Avenue that’ll be the newest part of the Excessive Line to open in September. And it’s the primary time I’ve laid out a Piet design. And we had been wanting on the plans, and it truly is, on this particular plan, monumental drifts of various forms of grasses.
After which there’s geraniums coming in correct proper right here and geums over correct proper right here and agastaches over correct proper right here. You get a better sense of actually what he’s doing. That is the key time I’ve ever achieved it, nonetheless it’s actually thrilling to put the yard out and likewise you get a fashion of actually how his concepts sort of works. You see the event behind what he’s trying to do.
Margaret: I assume it was remaining yr possibly he had a e-book come out that’s about his profession, his duties, and there have been loads of his designs in it as a part of the artwork work all through the e-book, not merely footage. And you might even see that there, too. It’s possible you’ll even see these shapes and the crops which is more likely to be specified to go in every one and so forth.
The choice concern I uncover fascinating concerning the drifts is it pleases our eye, and it truly works on this model to do it which suggests. Nonetheless in nature, in case you had merely onesies of 1,000,000 quite a few points, the animals, notably the bugs who’re counting on these crops, couldn’t uncover them and couldn’t make the most of them throughout the an an identical means. So the drifts furthermore serve a carry out, are you aware what I point out, in nature, all through the pure world.
Richard: Totally.
Margaret: These plant communities usually often should not merely 1,000,000 totally various kinds of crops all crunched collectively. There are only some key crops in higher numbers.
Richard: And in additional of the grassland plantings, as an illustration, he’s counting on sure crops to have the event to carry utterly completely different crops up, which is what, in actuality, occurs of their pure environments as appropriately.
Margaret: Yeah, the meadows and prairies are actually grasslands.
So I’m prompt by heaps of those that’ve tried to or who’ve gone additional naturalistic in some space of their gardens, possibly made a small meadow or no matter, I hear, “Accurately, nonetheless it retains altering. It doesn’t appear to be the distinctive plan. It’s not how I imagined it.” [Laughter.] “It doesn’t appear to be the image all through the e-book,” after they purchased it from a catalog, they purchased the seed or the plugs or no matter.
That’s kind of that, oops, good day succession, pure succession: one of many easiest methods factors go in nature. And so let’s concentrate on a bit bit about that, due to that is one issue that the Excessive Line 15 years on, or any naturalistic yard even 5 years on doesn’t look precisely an identical to the plan, even when it was a Piet plan [laughter].
Richard: Correct. And Piet at all times says a yard’s actually not achieved. And it’s an evolution. And the yard will allow you to already know what it wants to indicate into. And in order quickly as we are the stewards of those naturalistic landscapes, we’re interrupting the succession, the succession being the pure world is shifting from a grassland to a mature forest. And that’s usually the course of the evolution of planting. And so we get to step in and say now we have to keep up it as a grassland, and so now we have now to make these interventions.
We now should make substitutions for the crops that aren’t working. We now should edit out these, the thugs, in case you may, that get too totally joyful. We get to be completely shocked by the serendipity of 1 issue seeding in, or the combo that you just merely actually weren’t sure of, nonetheless it’s sort of rearranged itself in one of many easiest ways in which only a few of the issues have seeded. It’s being awake to how the yard must mature, and hopefully having a considerably delicate contact on guaranteeing that you just merely get one issue that’s pleasing and likewise you’re making the simplest mixtures receive success.
Margaret: Nonetheless it’s loads of enhancing. I point out, it’s not merely stepping as soon as extra and going, “O.Okay., that’s achieved. It’s been planted. All achieved. On to the following mission.” It’s not that in the least.
Richard: No. And a few factors actually are presupposed to be fillers in an early planting. After which as rapidly as a result of the grasses get established, they are going to need to present into 80 p.c of your meadow. And so it’s a ought to to possibly have methods for eradicating only some, only a few of the taller grasses, the large… Is it huge bluestem?
Margaret: Little bluestem and… I don’t know what you determine the large one, nonetheless yeah.
Richard: Large bluestem. Which left to its personal units was at one diploma crowding out the pathway. And so now we have to go in and say, you acknowledge what? You’re good. We wish you all through the as soon as extra. We wish you a bit bit additional as a punctuation moderately than as a safe wall. And in order that’s the place loads of the enhancing is in the marketplace in.
Margaret: Since you had been merely saying the totally utterly completely different crops and the way in which during which they virtually have a life cycle, sure crops in these designs, and a few are virtually used as nurse crops, what it is attainable you may determine nurse crops, to start with to fill house with one issue other than weeds that can come up from the soil. So only a few of your biennials and so forth, they’re not going to remaining 5 or 10 years [laughter]. They’re not going to be there due to as you diploma out, the grasses and utterly completely different factors might need crammed in.
These factors which is more likely to be counting on self-sowing aren’t going to have as many alternate choices to appreciate naked soil anymore and their life cycle will in all probability be over from these distinctive crops. So your black-eyed Susans or no matter that you just merely who had been like, “Oh, look, there’s so loads of these. They appear so fairly,” Accurately, that will not occur in yr 3 or 4 or 5 or 10.
Richard: Appropriate. This morning I used to be inserting Oriental poppy, which we don’t have on the Excessive Line. It was one among many distinctive crops that had been spec’d, nonetheless it’s a sort of early fascinating flower crops to return again once more up between the small grasses for the primary two or three years. They’re not terribly long-lived in my expertise, anyway, so it’s merely a sort of let’s create some curiosity.
We had the an an identical with… Is it foxtail Lily? Eremurus, sure. The an an identical concern. Really worthwhile, an lovely Excessive Line plant all through the primary 5 years, nonetheless now it’s been crowded out by grasses. We tried to get it established as quickly as additional, and it’s a hard one. It’s a sort of so used to having expert drainage and scorching, dry locations. You make sacrifices. You say, appropriately, that was good to start with and now we’ll swap on to let the yard have one different facet that’s going to shine.
Margaret: Appropriate. So one completely different kind of enhancing, loads of of us have heard of the Chelsea chop, the timed and named for the Chelsea Flower Present in England, due to in late Could, sure forms of perennials are throughout the low cost of half means. And doing that, they’re bushier and possibly they begin blooming a bit later, nonetheless they’re fuller and so forth.
You sort of take it to an excessive up there [laughter]. You guys have gotten Chelsea chops occurring. Merely inform me a bit bit about that methodology of enhancing the images. [Above and below, hedge clippers are used on drifts deeper in the borders; pruning shears on plants closer to the paths. Liz Ligon photos.]
Richard: Accurately, I actually really feel it primarily comes from the facet like now we have so many crops, and the gardens are so full; we don’t have the ability to stake one factor. Asters all through the tall grass prairie like Chelsea Grasslands [part of the High Line] will do O.Okay. with only one chop the place we’ll hit them almost in late Could, early June, right all through the Chelsea Flower Present. Nonetheless now we have I actually really feel it’s Aster October Skies which is more likely to be peppered all by the use of the Gansevoort Woodlands of the Birch Woodlands down correct proper right here on the south finish of the park.
On account of they’re in additional shade and to permit them to get floppy, I actually really feel John [Gunderson] cuts these two or 3 cases. So now I actually really feel they did them in late Could, as quickly as additional in June, after which he’ll do one completely different cut back maybe in mid-July. They usually’ll bloom later, nonetheless they’ll even be lovely, bushy, merely maybe 12 to 18 inches tall moderately than the 30 or 36 inches that they might flop over throughout the event that that they’d been left to their very private units. We do this lots with crops. I actually really feel Nepeta, some Monarda have been achieved usually.
Margaret: I wager goldenrods too.
Richard: Solidago, and among the Coreopsis, too, I actually really feel, we hit.
Margaret: As quickly as additional, it affords you, with out staking or one factor like that, which might merely be unattainable, it affords you a bushier plant, which is good and wished. In another case you may have loads of floppy factors, notably as you diploma out all through the shady areas. You probably can have loads of that happening. And I consider that you just merely do some thinning furthermore, due to you have got loads of wind, don’t you?
Richard: My gosh, sure. In truth, it was fairly windy this morning, and pleasant wind due to it was low-humidity wind for a change. Nonetheless I do know that on only a few of the Joe-Pye weeds, as an illustration, which might get moderately dense and tall, these may be very affected. We do it furthermore with Baptisia, the false indigos.
Margaret: Positive.
Richard: So there are only a few of the bigger flowering perennials that principally ought to be all through the windier spots do ought to be thinned out in order that they don’t create an excessive amount of sail.
And naturally, we do this with all of our timber as appropriately. We keep the entire birch timber and the oaks and every half fairly appropriately laced out to make it doable for we’re getting loads of good dappled delicate on the understory, due to we’re acknowledged for having this refined tree cowl, flowering spring timber, possibly the Amelanchier or the redbuds, after which the groundcover layer.
And all of that coexists, and that’s what I actually really feel makes the Excessive Line such a terrific place to go to due to the gardens are so intense, and you’ve got all these totally utterly completely different layers. Nonetheless it merely takes loads of administration to verify every half stays totally joyful.
Margaret: Appropriate, right. Yeah, it’s lots. [Laughter.] It’s positively, positively lots. Nonetheless you had been merely speaking about pruning primarily the timber. And the truth that what all of us confront, talking of factors that change in a yard, regardless of whether or not or not or not we’re managing it naturalistically or not, is usually quite a bit a lot much less delicate, due to our timber and shrubs develop as we’re there for longer. And so often there’s the arduous dedication to even take away a woody plant, due to it’s surviving on the expense of, as you’re mentioning, an identical to the groundcover layer or no matter.
There’s merely not the sunshine that there was, and every half else is struggling. That’s a extremely robust one. Nonetheless as quickly as additional, it might not matter what your model or your design aesthetic, that’s one which gardeners face who protect put for a extremely very very long time and making shrubs develop, right?
Richard: Constructive. And it’s not a lightweight dedication that we make to skinny timber out. Nonetheless I actually really feel individuals had been shocked how appropriately timber truly did on the Excessive Line. I don’t suppose they anticipated them to get fairly so tall and fairly so full. So it’s simpler to say it’s merely getting too crowded on this house. The right concern to do, moderately than attempt to management each single tree into being merely the correct amount of open, we’re able to selectively take out a tree correct proper right here or there and open factors up. And it seems additional pure, frankly.
You may take into accounts getting that subsequent succession, these youthful timber rising in your woodland, so it feels a bit bit additional pure, and also you then definately’re planning for succession. On account of if all of the timber are 20 years earlier, all of the timber are doubtlessly going to fail on the identical time. So now we’re enthusiastic about getting some smaller timber on this fall. So now we have this totally utterly completely different age stage.
And in areas an identical to the Flyover, which is the world individuals can be aware of with the elevated walkway, there we’re frankly getting fairly a bit bit little little bit of reseeding. Accurately, the sassafras come up far and huge, nonetheless the magnolias, the big-leaf magnolias are self-seeding. Among the many many sweetbay magnolias are furthermore self-seeding. So we’re leaving these and we get to select. And even in our bur oak grove, now we have some seedlings that we’re going to go away, so we’ll have totally utterly completely different ages. And so it merely is creating that, enthusiastic about what’s going on to appreciate success in 5 or 10 years. It’s merely planning forward.
Margaret: I merely needed to ask an adjunct to one among many factors we had been speaking about earlier than with self-sowns. Even ones which is more likely to be spec’d all through the plan and the design, even ones that you just merely love. I actually really feel John, who you referred to earlier than, John Gunderson, one among your senior gardeners, he has loads of Virginia bluebells, Mertensia virginica, in his space [above; photo by Andrew Frasz]. And there may be an excessive amount of of concern, right? It’d actually self-sow an excessive amount of and warp the look. So often you’re taking out factors which is more likely to be fascinating nonetheless not in additional. Is that one completely different mandate?
Richard: Constructive, precisely. The Mertensia might be going certainly one of many circumstances the place it’s good the place now we have it and it seems so pure one of many easiest methods it happens in these monumental drifts that go all by means of the pathway, nonetheless John does do some seedhead chopping. After which in actuality, it does want a cleanup all through the spring due to the leaves as they’re fading as soon as extra don’t look so good. Typically Piet’s actually good about… If he’s utilizing ephemerals and bulbs and factors like that, he’ll have a plant that may in all probability be rising as quite a bit as disguise the leaves which is more likely to be yellowing.
He’s fairly good about that mixture. I do know, as an illustration, now we have fairly a bit bit little little bit of Chasmanthium, the Northern sea oats, and we’ve seen that reseeds fairly a bit. As fairly a bit as we’re the yard that it’s best to return again to see due to now we have these lovely seeds all through the winter, we do selectively in the reduction of only a few of the seeds simply so we don’t find yourself with too many crops.
Margaret: Precisely. It’s robust, and notably on newer gardeners, it’s robust due to nobody must eradicate one factor, or compost one factor, or toss one thing away, so to talk. And it’s robust. It’s a tricky dedication. Accurately, the Excessive Line, I actually really feel your gardeners prompt me that the majority fascinating circumstances to go to are between 7:00 and 9:00 AM. [Visiting information.]
Richard: Oh my gosh, we do get very crowded due to we’re very talked-about and that’s good. Nonetheless when individuals actually should have an expertise, come between 7:00 and 9:00 AM, and even all through the evenings, we’re open all through the evenings all through {the summertime}. That’s pretty. We’re open till 10:00 PM.
Margaret: Wow!
Richard: And it’s an fascinating expertise at night time time time. All of the crops are low-lit, so you may expertise the… Nonetheless actually the morning is when it’s magic.
Margaret: Accurately, Richard Hayden, thanks for making time. I do know you purchase to get down there to 18th Avenue and go determine that planting format earlier than it’s going to get away from you.
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